Navigating Finance Transformation and Building a Niche in IT Services with Ian Dunn of BTP

0:00Welcome to IT Mastermind Talks your access to insights and experiences from thought leaders in the IT services industry and those that support the industry our podcast features not only the season professionals charting their start to exit Journey but also the key contributors who help ensure the success we delve into the diverse challenges encountered within the IT services realm encompassing both professional hurdles and personal obstacles join us be part of growing community and engaging the conversation hosted by Ian Markram of Loading Growth great to have you here Ian it's been a long time that we've known each other you've been one of my clients for I think three to four years so it's awesome to catch up in person not on the other side of teams and it's going to be great just talk about your journey from where you were how you started out as a it Professional Services business owner where you are at the moment and everyone's goes through an up and down Journey I've been through a journey myself to get to this point as well so let's start off just a bit about on the background in and where you know where did you start what inspired you to be a business owner as you are now how did you get there yeah okay so thanks for having me yeah I think I think where the journey started in terms of launching into business was I was in the corporate world and

1:33Busting to not be in the corporate world so the the journey was very much one of leveraging the experience that I had and taking that across the fence into the Consulting Arena so we started out very much taking to market the things that I was the capability that I individually out to Market as a I'd found myself running some large business startup and infrastructure you know Bank in in in the investment banking world so I learned a lot in that in that Journey but I I felt strongly I felt I fitted you're ready elsewhere yeah good yeah that's that's awesome I know it's been a while how long how long has the business been going for 22 years Wow Come November or last November it's quite amazing it's that's that's brilliant what if you can think back that far what were the sort of initial steps that made you actually kick off the business if you can remember you know you mentioned that how you sort of transferred from the from the industry into Consulting but do you remember what the what was like that feeling was this nervousness around that look I had I had great conviction about where I wanted to be and where I didn't want to be but I I knew that I needed to learn more about where

3:08I wanted to take things and so I spent some significant time before making transition drinking coffee building the network and I very quickly came to the realization that every conversation that I was having I learned something and that theme just just keeps going so I was living in one you know world the corporate world and stepping out you know through those series of you know they were insightful they gave me things to think about and they also connected me to to new people great great so that sort of that that leg work that you did that ground work made you comfortable to actually jump ship from industry into it Services that's great and Consulting that's really good what was your vision if you can remember that far back I mean your vision was of of your businesses now very different obviously to to what it is but if you think back then did you have a sort of a vision of where you wanted to go or did you have a you know an idea yeah so I guess the the work that I was doing was around managing large scale it delivery projects in the corporate world it's fair to say the vision was flaky M but it was off the back

4:43Of some experiences that went very well and I felt that they were packageable offerings now obviously customers determine who you are not the dreams that you might necessarily have so we we launched as a project management consulting business offering capabilities around program delivery but but in particular working with corporates to help them establish the wherewithal to run projects so building the method and driving the change initiative to help corporates run projects more successfully okay so that's that's that's how we started yeah your first client that's always the the the joy I remember when I got my first client when I was Consulting and you got the first sort of Po that comes through yeah it was quite quite exciting moment and I know 22 years ago it was a while back but what what did you do when you first got your first client you I I I I can't remember it was probably more trepidation of oh okay now I've got one so I was again off the back of the the sort of networking an opportunity came about quite quickly leading a project for you know a a share registry operation

6:20Joint venture between a I think it was asss and ASX and Perpetual doing a look at this is some time ago basically a major system deployment so I found myself sort of playing a project management role leading leading that okay any sort of the challenges that you can imagine look back that you had you know starting up you know for those people that want to actually jump ship from a a big corporate like a big five consultancy firm or big systems integrator how do you actually you know I suppose how do you actually think about challenges Jumping Ship and and starting out as a small business do you you sort of any any thoughts on that yeah lots lots of thoughts I you know I look back and I think you know it it's embarrassing to think about how much I didn't know about what I was doing you know it it's all very well and good to know where you don't want to be and to imagine where you do want to be but when you know as a you know largely a technical professional whether that's in Project delivery which was my My ultimate or or or some other technical discipline it's really important to know that you need to think commercially and you need

7:53To know and be focused on sales because otherwise you're just a technical set of arms and and legs you might be a a leader of pro projects but you're still a a body is part of someone else's machinery and as running a business you you need to be generating Pipeline and understand that things to for things to be sustainable you can't just bury yourself in a project because otherwise you're just a soul Trader contract you're not a a business owner with a business behind mind you yeah yeah really important I see all the time when I speak to prospects that come on board to the program and they basically either are contractors they've left the world and want to set up a a consultancy firm it consultancy firm and they end up getting caught up in just being a a glorified business which is really a contractor the biggest thing that's holding them back as you mentioned ear is the sales factor and repeat sales and and that's that is the challenge I think of an early stage that I see all the time is how to get that machine working yeah and and not be the so the sole bread winner for it yeah let's just move more onto the growth and development of of your organization and how did you scale your business and I suppose we just talked a bit about that but how do you scale your business from the early days

9:25To where you are now what was the the things that you did to scale yeah let's see so the journey is very much one of let let's see what we talk about here the the journey was one of a vision of building solution assets so wanting to you know we recut the the strategy in 2006 I think and and the the vision there was clear and it was about offering a greater value add to you know our customer demographic and that was shifting from really project management consulting and and those change projects to having Solutions so that was the that was the I guess the criteria from there we moved into the process automation space we delivered some great projects delivered some you know won some really significant deals for some of our software vendors some were largest in southern hemisphere at the time time and these were top top tier players not yet established in southern hemisphere but we found ourselves learning about different domains and we pursued an agenda of building assets over the things that we learned and we we didn't you know we we rebuilt things the way we thought customers more broadly might want to consume some of the solutions that we had we've

11:02Probably been on that costly Journey a couple of times and yeah certainly some some really big lessons the first one you know something called workday came along and you know the proposition we had we were not able to get off the ground with the back-to-back commercials with our software vendors we tried it again with a solution that's a very exciting story which we can talk about when you talk about the highlights but you know there was a solution where again we won a Gart award for a customer it was filling a significant Gap in the market but the the commercials didn't sort of quite line up but we've learned a lot in in that area of you know around a strategy of not build not not delivering orphan projects and doing something foreign each time we start yeah that unique thing that people get caught up with yeah so we've learned a lot we've we've we've got a lot of Orphans we've learned a lot across industry we've we've worked in in many Industries over over our time but you know I think you asked me a different question about how did we scale we started really much we moved we we transitioned across to IBM and that that took us into a large partner network and that's where we really got focused on partnering or or or exploring partnership with other people in in this

12:35Big ecosystem where there was a lot lot of players who did things very different to what we did and so my theory has always been we're all sitting on each other's customers M but all these opportunities are not you know consumated because we don't know about the opportunities for ourselves on on the clients of others and and vice versa so that's that's that's that's really how we how we launched the the next thing is when I look at the growth and development when I'm speaking to to clients that have been coaching or or prospects and you know what are the strategies they using to attract customers and then retain customers you know it's quite important because cuz what actually tends to happen that I see companies basically get a bit of a a sales machine working and then they Rush from one client to the next client without actually sitting back and going you know what that we've got a lot more to offer to that client but it's easier they think to go to the next client and actually just do the same thing over again okay and I'm not saying creating new orphan projects or or doing something that not up you know in your skill or warehouse at that client but it's not saying that picture so you know I always say to people you know

14:07Attracting a client is hell of important and then retaining a client is hell of important so how are you attracting clients at the moment and then how you retaining clients at the moment yeah right so I guess we made refinements to our goto Market approach and offering probably around the time we met you probably three or four years back where we realized that we had some very strong opportunities in a in a niche segment and and so our our goto Market approach was to be very specific in in the offering which was all around the automation of all things Finance in the office of CFO and to really understand the the stakeholder and buyer personas and to craft camp through you know the LinkedIn and social media channels to pursue connections to build brand through webinar and other sort of social media activity so that that that process has has worked really well it's given us focus and discipline and it's given Clarity around our Pursuit and that continues to work for us today great that's that's hell of important you what you said there is gold I think you know anyone out there running our te Services firm doesn't matter how big they or small though are they should be really

15:38Looking at you know what you just said there and taking that on board thanks for that the retaining the clients so you know you've talked about the pursuit as you call it in your words how you actually manage to win those clients and you're doing that well at the moment and it's fantastic but how you attaining the clients at the moment yeah yeah so look I think the stats say just off the back of your earlier comment you know the the the next the the easiest opportunities are the ones with customers that you already have and referrals is after that and C calling and new prospects is long long way back so are really increasingly attuned to how we love our customers we really I guess lessons we really need to understand our customer every customer is different we're all individuals we're we're people and they're people sometimes we can be a bit difficult just like they can be difficult and so it's it's really about understanding the customer and and their their goals and their sensitivities and you know the what's in it for them and walking alongside them so very much we we we talk about you know being their trusted advisor it's very important that we keep connection not just in times of active delivery and and billing but you

17:11Know we it's it's the conversations it's the informal relationships it's building those good relationships understanding what they're trying to achieve understand where they're stuck doesn't matter if it relates to what we're doing for them or or or or not so it's it's really about that that nurture you know opportunities will will come it's about giving and you know the G will follow yeah brilliant thanks for that I think the the challenge with customers sometimes is they've been dealing with a large amount of system integrators or big consultancy firms and they're very nervous to have them basically coming on board as a as a consultancy firm and then they have an arms length procurements and involved and everything's involved and you know the the companies I coach are really Niche they they're specialized and that's one of the things I that when I actually bring a client on board that I involve in the coaching program is to make sure that there is value that they can deliver to clients they famous for something what I've what I used to notice when I was in the consultancy world was clients were always you know arms length but until they got to realize as a niche player and specialize in what you do you actually can bring value and then you're not going to overeat or over consume their budget in other areas and and not deliver so value so I think that's you know hopefully a lot of my ex-clients are listening to this and take note because

18:45I'm a big believer that they should be working closely and even closer with syn system integrators but the big ones they're hard to manage you know when they come on on S side so yeah the the next thing is any any pivotal moments that you can think of that have have impacted the growth of your company in the last year or two anything that's changed that you got right that you think of so I think I think the pivotal moments are are really in line with I guess some of the conviction of strategy lots of buses come by that you you could Chase and it's tempting to chase those buses or or opportunities if you don't have a a filter to fit them against so I I I think our our journey in recent years off the back of of launching is you know we've learned to say no we don't do that we can refer you to someone else so I think that has allowed us to just build rather than go sideways it's allowed us to build and extend rather than you know almost get distracted and start some start a a new capability without even realizing it but it's always from scratch so holding firm

20:20Building momentum deepening capability extending the on the focus that we've you know set out to you know execute that is so perfect another another real golden nugget there when I when I see clients for the first time I can see they they're under stress and the reason why they're under stress is because they don't have the depth and capability as you just said and they're trying to do too much with not enough depth and they and therefore they're putting themselves under stress and Reinventing and they're on this continuous hamster wheel trying to reinvent and and they putting themselves under stress less margins more re work unhappy clients yeah it's really important really good nugget of information there and something that I think is pivotal to for your growth to keep them going and I think it's really good the one of the things about it Services is it's it is always involving it's changing quite a bit and you've been through this over your 22 years you've changed course because the software vendors have all fallen out of favor with a certain technology or technologist has moved on and someone else has filled that Gap that you're at and it is it is tough and how how's that impacted your business you know you were once a big IBM partner and you're no longer really an big IBM partner at the moment how's that impacted your business at the moment look I I think we have to change you know so it was important that we Diversified and and and refocused

21:58And so it's amazing how fast things are moving you know once a technology generation might have been 10 years and now it's like seems like a generation of technology is 18 months so the problems that can be solved now with what's available are so so different to what was available you know four years ago three years ago so it's so important to just keep up with the change and for us it's a realization that we have customer opportunities you know with an existing customer demographic that can be addressed very very efficiently with the the new capabilities that that we're working with and focusing on around the AI and Robotics and what have you yeah that leads us the next question quite lastly The Innovation and how's that you know how do you taking that to Market and and is that really you know part of your strategy at the moment as a business you know how do because it's always evolving the whole time yeah yeah yeah yeah no look I think it's we we've had sort of you know invested significantly in in Innovation and building IP and experimenting with new technologies I think it's a balance you know ex exploring and and playing and being commercial you know you could play it's really fun it's really not that I'm the player but it's

23:33Really fun to explore quite often you find the guys with billions of dollars of Revenue of are on the same thing you might be exploring and so you know all of a sudden you know it's it's commercially available from someone else at a very cheap price globally yeah so the importance of innovation you know that is that is really key we have in Years Gone by invested significantly in exploring new capabilities inventing new offerings leveraging you know R&D tax Grant for sure that's been very helpful in the in the learning and understanding and building capability in the in the team very important to keep the balance between you know fun experimentation but it needs to be balanced with the commercial imperative so you sort of need a little bit of tight rain and and and scope and confinement but not too much otherwise you're not innovating but it needs to align with where you what's going to benefit your customers as opposed to amuse the the technical genius yeah in in the team so where I think for us the Innovation is all around understanding the capability of of new tech knowy components that augment and fit into to our offering and

25:06Extend the offering so not sort of totally left field and adjacent but you know complimentary to you know building and expanding that's that's our Focus for right we're going to move on to a bit more of a different theme at team and culture at the moment and you know it's really you know the important thing as we know is we're a Services business so people is really our product and you know it's important to to keep building those teams and keeping them you know the culture making sure the culture is right fit for you as and also for your clients I suppose how do you go about sort of build your team culture and building your team moment yeah so it's it people are the you know the technolog is the easy thing and the people are the and getting the people right is is the hard thing I think you know you you and I talk about the pub test all the time when you're meeting new people you know they've got to feel right you've got to be able to relate to them and obviously that's you know tempered by or needs to go with the you know the right competency and and skill so especially for our consultant you know client Consulting members of the team it's it's very important that that people are well-rounded and our customers will like them but that they have the skills to you know communicate explain persuade

26:42And deliver so that the customer is you know delighted in in what we do for them and and so the the the DNA especially of the Consulting leads really important so culture fit we try to build a you know a close-knit core we have a a close-knit core and it's how do we how do we plug new people in so that that core you know just increments out and stays intact it's interesting because if you look back in the last four four or five years the core team is changing and because everyone's more Diversified working H but also spread out as well remote so there's a lot of different cultures happening and a lot of different forces that are driving Consulting and it'll be interesting to see where consultancy firms end up in the next two to three years you know with global you know offshoring onshoring n Shoring whatever you have and then you you mix that all up into a blended team to get a good outcome at a good price point for clients it's it's going to be interesting to see what happens with that you know the other thing how do you people motivated and productive you know on as a remote you know if you got people remotely working because not many clients nowadays are actually working on client sites as much you might go there for a kickoff for you know a couple of meetings every now and then but most

28:15People now working remotely yeah and your team's working remotely any thoughts on how to keep them you know productive and motivated yeah I think regular communication it's it's we we can't change the amount of contactors I I think it's important to be engaging daily in the you know the the regular the formal you know touch points the daily standups the you know the weeklys ETC I remember in the in the early days of Co I'd let me just try and remember the the phrase I I'd i' try and encourage the guys to do walk walk by each other's desks except in in a remote context just just press the call button and have a chat to someone you know ask how they're going just check in don't don't wonder how they're going you know just and keeping people involved keeping people a breast of what's going on throwing people in the deep end so they're challenged you know our Consultants at the front line of the business racing thorough breads they they they they want to be challenged and and and busy and you know deep end is better than a waiting pool definitely definitely yeah I always say if people don't have interesting projects to work on Consultants they'll

29:47Tend to leave the organization so they've got to be challenged you know and get that momentum going and yeah get that get that really happening for them so the next things is we really want to talk about is you know what services and clients that you basically you know what type of services do you offer currently and I know they evolved over time because as we mentioned early on tech and and and implementations and solutions have changed over the last 20 years so I suppose what type of services are you currently offering at the moment and how do you go to market with those Services yeah so well firstly on the services our our our engine room capability is underpinned by all things automation you know but we we marry that with a business Consulting skill so our our Target customer is is the CFO the CFO or the office of Finance represents the transactional workload in in the Enterprise and quite often it is operating in a suboptimal way there's lots of workarounds there's lots of manual work there's lots of spreadsheets accountants love spreadsheets and they're so inefficient so you know all that all that disconnecting system

31:21That gives rise to manual work errors rework delays that's what we address with automation but our our our our mission is to make sure we understand the business objectives really clearly understand the the problem and and deeply and we work through I guess a business Improvement agenda based on really clear objectives and then deliver on business case with with automation great great how do you describe your ideal client I mean there's never ideal client I mean I mean as a consultant background every time we start a new project we go is this the client that's going to be the perfect client and you have this Vision that it's going to be the perfect client the perfect implementation the perfect result yeah and unfortunately it never really fits all three of those things never fit and you know it's quite it's just hardening every now and then but there's a bit of a tunnel at the end for Consultants so how do you describe your ideal client and then how do you target them I suppose how do you actually get to know them and how do you service them so you know who is your ideal client at the moment okay so our our our ideal client is really a a a business sponsor a CFO who's walked into situation that is somewhat untidy yeah and is right for really dramatic transformation so

32:54And quite often and what's behind that is you know not every organization has got sort of banking expertise driving process efficiency and Integrated Systems and so these platforms processes governance ways of working in in some cases very much neglected so when we when we see a finance executive a financial controller a CFO Deputy CFO who's been in an organization for not very long it's kind of an indicator to us that they're they're not responsible for whatever exist so when there's a static sort Technology you know tenure of of leadership there combined with a Refresh on the business that's that's really I guess the the sign other attributes are really a sponsor who wants to transform and understands that you know the business benefit they're Keen to redeploy people onto more valuable things or to right size the organization that's where there's the business case that's the that's where the real money comes from in making that you know benefits realization how do you I know you get a lot of referrals which is was really good because you've got a a good Network and you've got a good track record of

34:2720 two years running a great business so besides the referrals how are you actually getting new clients what's the the couple tricks you mentioned link you mentioned marketing and a few things at the moment and sort of how you getting your clients at the moment the the the LinkedIn gives us presence it gives us connection it gives us a a platform to you know run events and webinars people are very accessible in terms of attending wears when there's a subject that is is of interest to them so we obviously we're aligning I guess our offering and our message to to what's of interest to CFOs look there's no there's no substitute for for for boot leather my friend Sydney manassian G gave a talk recently and he speaks about increasing the luck surface area I think it's a fantastic phrase so I've always been of the philosophy that you know none of us know where our next deals are coming from and so being in Market talking to customers talking to people being present online being being being present physically maintaining relationships with Partners making sure people know what you're doing you know again that that idea of we're all sitting on each other's customers as as people in a partner Community how can we collaborate so we seek to just sort of foster

36:01That that whole that whole dynamic body ever present great thanks for that what are the common challenges you face when working with clients you know what are sort of pitfalls you know generic you know you know don't think of any clients in particular but what are the common challenges that you see yeah look I think it's quite often you know we don't have the customers mind mind and they don't have our mind and so from there the work begins you know and the work prevails so we need to be educating the customer all the time on what we do and how it fits and and how what we do impacts their business and and so we need to be there so our customers can understand and so our customers can leverage our expertise you know all so many of our people of tier one Enterprise grade Banks insurers top end of town experience and you know so we have experience that many of our customers in the midm market mid Enterprise don't don't have so the work is keeping close to our customers you know when we deliver a project in automation rolls rolls completely change often some roles will exist in fact many roles won't exist but we create new roles and

37:37Customers can't imagine what we're talking about and and and we talk about a customer doesn't know what they've got until we've died the the first outcome then they're qualified to know and until then it's it's work to make sure that they are as close as possible to knowing and knowing what to expect great great I love the the the education part you've got to keep on re-educating the client the whole time they're busy doing their jobs they're tired they're frustrated and you know you got to keep them you got to keep your wits while you're doing that education piece and take them through that Journey it's really important well on and it's fantastic now how do you you know we just talked about you know the clients the challenges you have at clients gener you know the generic sort of ches you have how do you keep the quality of work you know we're a Services organization you know your company is I should say how do we keep that quality of work ensure that's quality that it's at a higher standard while you got multiple clients multiple programs running at the same time gets quite complicated how do you how do you ensure that quality stays at the level that's required yeah so quality I I guess there's a number of sort of key factors to it obviously you know this the the things that are given you know you need competent people experienced people but behind that you need you know the

39:11Journey that we're on is is really trying to build repeatability in the business not just in the the headline of what we do but in the in the way that we do it so you know talking about the the package offerings that that you know you've talked to us about standardizing our our methods building Sops for our own back office activities building method method and just starting to you know to or to be just forever maturing refining so that we take the key person dependency yeah out of things and we we have a sort of a an maturing and of a refining Baseline of how we do things so that's that's good that's really I me that's spot on and I know that you're doing that all those activities and and and it's hard to do them it's not easy it's it's time consuming cost money and you've got to do that otherwise you're never going to scale as organization it's one thing winning work and then solving that problem then the next problem's actually trying to deliver it on the scale yeah and and making sure the client gets that's fantastic thanks for that I know you I know because of I work with you as in coaching and I know you get some really good success stories and I'm Amazed by the value that you bring to customers when you talk to me about what you're currently doing on client sites and it's very impressive for a team of you know

40:44That when you go to deliver can you just give us an example of what you're currently doing on site and you know the cost benefits and and yeah the ROI and that because I think that's you know that's you know everyone in the systems world and system Services World they say there's RI and two years later people still trying to work out where it is yeah you know but you guys are in there quite impactful doing small pieces of work can you just talk and elaborate on that as a study yeah so the type of work that we do and and the capability underpinning what what we do allows us to deliver a portfolio of of inre m al pieces of work and so each of those pieces of work typically amounts to obviously some there's some Upstream activity around reshaping process changing roles around that business advisory But ultimately what we deliver is a portfolio of solutions where each one requires a an incremental investment and it's undertaken based on some prior sort of assessment of opportunity that identifies really a an Roi based on multiple things but primarily labor takeout and it's and so that's that's ultimately where a

42:17Business case comes from for many of our customers it's not just that it's about quality it's about removing backlogs you know processing backlogs closing closing your books every month you know in with you know all the right numbers in all the right places but the outcomes are are really clear and we we are you know taking out you know between two and four people out of six person processes we're probably doing three of those in the you know across the you know a six-month period at the moment wow that's that's very you know from a redeployment for companies big companies that need to redeploy people to you know more skilled roles things like that people just don't want to do those skills roles going forward yeah you know so I think it's it's amazing yeah oh look it's it's it's very exciting it's tangible and you know if I sort of go back to some of the early strategy documents that we've sort of wrote very long time ago what's remained through the through Through the Ages in our context is delivering real tangible outcome measurable outcome and and this is really the what we do now yeah brilliant well thanks that's you know I know the the ins and outs of the details and it's it's fantastic and

43:50That's why you have got a great business to be honest okay so we're going to move on to the challenges and lessons m so what are the biggest sort of challenges you faced as a business owner in you in in your in the IT services industry U you know is it sales marketing staff delivery is a combination everything but what are the the biggest challenges you faced over the last you know 22 year years yeah I gosh how how long have you got yeah so I I think sales sales is is Big not taking for granted the need to build Pipeline and generate interest in the market for what you do you know we've we've just been very lucky in for a long long time where we've lived off Network and we've bounced from sort of one large programmer work to a to another for for many years until you know the sort of last Last 5 Years where we've had a lot repeatability and it's not to say that you know that either model is you know better than the other probably very happy about what we're doing now in terms of the the the the broad Market appeal for what we're doing but really sales understanding how you're going to get customers really really how you going to and it's beyond the people you know it's not it's not just the people you know that's how you might start but it's not how you're going to finish and it's not going to

45:22How you're going to survive I think the other one is just being you know just clear on the go to market you know what is your what who is your buyer what's their what's their demographic their Persona what do they want what are they trying to achieve in in their situation you got to put your head in in their head and you know it's you've got to have something that that they want yeah for sure something you got to solve I always say the bigger problem you solve for a client the more you get paid for it m it's that's really what it is that's consultancy firm you know any consultancy firm competition you know there's a lot of competition in the market there's offshore onshore Nearshore there's just you know companies you know competing with you how do you how do you think about competition how do you actually you know handle it okay I I think it's really important for us to understand who we are and who they are you know we do good things our competition does good things but different things and so we're increasingly aware of how we need articulate how and why we're different and and for that to be real so you know for us it's we're able to deliver accelerated value in a

46:57In a in a bespoke way obviously we've got lots of Ip and capability but we're able to match the exact requirement of the of the business and and solve things exactly by understanding the thing the challenge and the problem and situation clearly we're not a body shop we're not a large scale we we we match with our customers in terms of mid Enterprise we understand their problems we've got strong reference ability with customers you know that are familiar with the ones that we're pursuing okay great now 22 years it's a long good track record it's amazing and you must have had a lot of big challenges and I've had challenges when I was running Services firm any business has challenges but Services firm I feel like it's just a little bit harder yeah I suppose one of the big challenges was was TFC one of them was it change of tech landscape one of them yeah I think and how do you over how do you overcome it yeah I think obviously in those in those dips the GFC Co it's really bunkering down scrambling to secure your your next revenues or or making decisions in response to situation I think a lot of I guess the challenges we've experienced and and where lessons are learned around not

48:31Making decision indecision is the worst in indecision cost you money whether that's because you've got bench time and and or or services that are not in demand over others that you might have in your you know indecision around customers that are you know you need to have those tough conversations and if you don't then you know it's going to continue to be tricky and you won't have alignment with how you're contributing to what what they're yeah okay that's pretty insightful what are the sort of business lessons you've learned as a business owner and you just mentioned a few of those there as well one of the things I see is a lot of people when they need to resize a team for whatever reason there's a shock in the economy wherever you are y and they all text changed and the services that have you know have to replicate those changes as well yeah people try and sell the way out of it problem Y and sometimes I think it's quite quite difficult to do that if you try and sell your way out I suppose any questions any sort of business owner type generic questions you've learned as a business owner look I I think it is important I would say to make

50:05Sure you've got the right skills to engage with the customer and your best best and brightest technical is not necessarily your best business Consulting skill you know we we are in the in the business of transforming a customer's entire function finance and and and other it's it's not about the tech it's about the being able to lead the customer on the journey transparently to be able to run conversations to be able to explain a lot of complexity in a simple digestible way for the customer and if if you don't have that presence then that that sets you up for you know suboptimal for sure that puts you as a business own Under Pressure I presume so yeah what means you're playing rescue because so that's fixing things up the whole time and yeah that's the that's the risk yeah okay it's pretty good thanks for that all right the future and the vision yeah this last sort of sort of a part of the and we and we're nearly there and what trends do you see in the IT services industry at the moment what trends do you see at the moment that are impacting Landscapes you know AI is one of them obviously everyone's talking about that I saw El my sister just put $6 billion dollar or raise six billion dollar for his AI solution so just

51:38Imagine how much work you could do with $6 billion yeah yeah it's I just I just sat back and I was thinking about it about a day ago when it was released I was like six milon how many man hours could you use to build something it's amazing but anyway let's not try and solve those me mega problems but what challenges do you see shape in the future of IT services indry probably more particularly in your area yeah look I think obviously the skill shortage is is you know you know an ongoing theme and how so how we differentiate in the market to attract the right people I think there's lots of opportunity given the the reset of work patents there that that you know allow us to you know provide work life balance lifestyle things so I think being able to accommodate that and and striking the right balance you know obviously we need to be we are very present with our customers on on site especially you know in the sort of stakeholder engagement design and and lots of sort of handholding you know points through the Journey but yeah just really resourcing and finding creative ways to to deliver without compromising the quality in the in the team is is Big I think there's

53:16A lot of misconceptions in the market around what what's available and what it can really do and how much effort is really really required to make it work so unless you know quite often our you know our our customers and you know the sort of technology stakeholders they they can't be across everything you know their pants are on fire already keeping the lights on so I guess that's that's always a a challenge to you know yeah get common understanding I think that's a pretty important thing to remember that the customer's always in chaos as I just said and if you go to that customer you know you got to think they're always in chaos and if they're not that's positive but generally they are so and that's why you're there to to help solve that bit of that chaos as a business what are your sort of mid to long-term you know strategy or vision of where you you going to go as a business yeah okay so we we really want to be I guess owning our space you know so in that Niche we've carved out around Finance transformation and executing on Roi in in really measurable ways we we want to differentiate against the out- of thebox solutions because the out of thebox solutions can only handle what's in the box so we we think we've got a nice niche there that we are you know

54:50Pursuing the prosecution of of that Vision yeah great any sort of role of Technology involving in your business itself anything that you you're going to be using to help your business so for us you know we're not technology junkies in one particular flavor or of another we we build solution based on a multiple moving Parts you know Parts like you know robotics machine learning document ingestion other AI components there's a lot of people people who can dance with the the hammer but they they can't operate with the toolbox and and knit the knit the solution together so we we're solving complex problems for our customers with a portfolio of capability under the Bonnet okay brilliant so last question I suppose thanks for for getting there is any advice for aspiring it you know Consultants that want to or contractors or people want move into consultancy and run a business any in advice to business owners out there potential business owners should say yeah I think depends on the pursuit but I think partnering with one or ideally three three of you would be probably a one point of wisdom If you're sort of on the starting blocks so have like a

56:23Not not a single co-founder but maybe two three co-founders yeah you know I think three's the three is the ideal one to balance you know a dispute between the others or so I think that's important just working working writing things down writing down the plan the capability the offering what's the market what is the value prop who's going to buy it just just think through viability that's that's worth worth of time yeah I think it's important I think you said something early on which is what we I mean I knew a lot I worked for a a great consultancy firm I saw the rise of how they you know did the you know winning so much work and delivering great projects yeah but when I left that consultancy firm to start my own it was a leap of faith and you know sometimes it's the less you know the better you know otherwise you probably if you know too much you probably wouldn't make the leap you you know what I mean so for me sometimes it's well you know jump it just jump yeah and worst case if you're really good enough if it doesn't work out six months later or nine months later you can always go back to one of the big consultancy firms you know where you left so I think that's that's one of the advice I give to people when they phone me up out of the blue and say look someone's someone's giving me advice to give you a shot in what are your thoughts and what have you got really to lose yeah you know you got nothing yeah

57:56Bit of Pride and maybe a bit of cash and put sets you back maybe six months or so yeah but I think that's a it's a good thing anything else that you would like to share at the moment Ian been through a lot the session appreciate it but anything else no look I think I think just off the back of you know the the when you're sort of in that startup mode if you and even if you are doing it with others but especially if you're not it's it's really leverage the wisdom of others who've gone before you sure you know you can't there's so many things that in terms of issues and subjects and that require a skill base and a single individual can can learn a lot but you can certainly Fast Track the the the the pain of learning and or or or the or the lag of not knowing yeah just by leveraging Network or advisors or you know Co coaches because there are things you navigate you just you just need sounding board yeah it's it's it's it's lonely being a business owner yeah it is lonely and it's challenging and you got to speak to people who have been through that or going through that so like getting into the community of some sort is really important yeah okay well thanks very much for that it's very insightful and thanks for catching up and appreciate your time lovely to be here thanks thanks for joining us on it Mastermind talks don't miss out on our next episode hit the follow button and

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