Is the MSP Industry Dying? Scaling a Cyber-Focused IT Firm

0:00It's Ian Markram from IT Masterminds Talks, and I'm talking to Billy. Billy, how are you going? Good, thanks. How are you? Thanks for having me. Yeah, very good, very good. Billy, we'd just like you to do a quick intro about your yourself and your company. Yeah, awesome. so, Cevera IT is a MSP or IT provider with accountability. So, we do governance, risk, and compliance in the cyberspace. So, if you think ISO SOC 2, or audit and assessment and strategy, that's kind of one part of our business. And then as a part of that, we run a a cloud-based MSP. So, doing modernization, workforce security, identity and access management, those kind of things.

0:40Hence the tagline behind me. We do all the boring things. Welcome to IT Mastermind Talks. Your access to insights and experiences from thought leaders in the IT services industry and those that support the industry. Our podcast features not only the seasoned professionals charting their start-to-exit journey, but also the key contributors who help ensure their We delve into the diverse challenges encountered within the IT services realm, encompassing both professional hurdles and personal obstacles. Join us. Be part of our growing community and engage in the conversation hosted by Ian Markram of Loading Growth.

1:20Great. Well, look, I'm really keen to ask you a few questions around Vibe Coding and SOC 2 and everything else that goes after. So, we'll get that into it later on cuz that's I've just Yeah, a very hot topic. Everyone's trying to spin up an app and make money out of it. so, I'm very keen to get your thoughts and processes on on that from a security perspective later on in this in the show. So, before we do all that though, we start really at the beginning, you know, and we want to know all a bit about Billy. Yeah, you know, high school, Billy. Let's start off at high school. you know, what were you like at high school? Were you a naughty kid, good kid? what was your What would your teachers think of you? I think I was something in between. So, I love sports, football, soccer, surfing, mountain skiing, all those kind of things. But I was a massive geek. I love history and politics and philosophy. So, I think I was a walking contradiction and then I

2:19Having two older brothers too, I I didn't mind a fight and getting in trouble. I got suspended a few times. So, I think I was a walking talking contradiction in high school like dedicated to sports and really quite geeky, but at the same time didn't want to scrap. So, it's kind of I don't really know where I fit. I think I was just the weird guy. Fair Fair enough. Fair enough. and what did you do after school?

2:42I did my 20s in reverse. I had a serious girlfriend, a corporate job, and I was studying international politics and economics and then decided this was all getting too serious. So, I flipped script script and broke up with my girlfriend, ended my career, and then traveled overseas 7 chasing ski seasons and worked on farms, scaffolding, and oil rigs. ended up running bars and nightclubs. And then it all came crashing down and near my 30th birthday I had a I was mugged and had a brain injury and then that kind of started me on my IT

3:15Wow. Okay, hang on for a second. See, that's awesome because I mean you know I've been working with Billy for a few months now and I've actually never really had the chance or opportunity to talk to him about you know, his early early life that life hood and everything else. So, where did you go surfing? Where did you go did did you know, where did you travel in those 7 I'm still surfing to this day. I'm a third generation. Dad still surfs his 80s and runs his own business. He'll surf most days. so, I chose winter. So, I was very obsessed with mountain culture and and skiing and and how to try and kill yourself running down a ski down a mountain. So, I did in Canada, America, and France chasing winters, but then also did 10 months in Brazil and South yeah, so France was amazing.

4:05Yeah, fantastic. Right combination of death deathy kind of mountains, but with some nice culture at the bottom of the mountain. All right. All right, so you you traveled a bit then. Are you traveling much now at the moment just out of curiosity? You got a young family, so it's a bit hard, I suppose. No, I we've got one kid and another one on the way. my wife is from England, so all things being equal, hopefully get over there every once in a while. and we still travel around Australia, just bought a a new four-drive to do some more off-roading and all those things, so

4:38Kind of focusing more on the continent Brilliant. Brilliant. Yes, so Billy for those is from Melbourne. So, I'm obviously in Sydney, so I catch up with him every now and then when I get down to to Melbourne. All right, so that's brilliant. How did you get So, you get mugged. You obviously had a you know, this is like life's got to change Take us from there.

5:01Yeah, I I worked in the hospital and I was I got very good at the hospitality thing. I loved taking care of people, works and you know, it's a good camaraderie, but yeah, I kind of like I need to challenge myself mentally. I think I was pretty bored and unfulfilled despite living a lifestyle that people would be envious of traveling and and all those things, but yeah, I I resolved to get into management consulting and make an impact on the world through that, you know, the big builds in Melbourne or you know, drive along the road and be like, " hey son, I helped build this." kind of thing was where I was at, man. Have a have a meaning in life. so I started studying HR, couldn't get a job in HR despite running a $20 million nightclub in Canada that employed and fired hundreds of people a year. They I I had no HR experience, so ended up in IT recruitment of all things. A year off so after the recovery, 4 months into that COVID happens and they sacked the entire workforce in the recruitment industry in the in that particular firm. They sacked 70% of the workforce in the first 2 weeks.

6:02Ironically they ended up hiring them back about 2 months later, but in doing that I I did a reference call for a guy that I was trying to place in a job. They were starting their own MSP. And they always said to me, "Look, you love talking to people. You seem to know things about sales. You know, we need your help."

6:22"We can't pay you, but we'll give you some equity." And at the time it was about 10 jobs on all of seek, so I said, "Why not? I'll keep myself busy and if it doesn't work, I at least, you know, worked during the lockdown I could get a be more appealing to the next employer." We got that one up to about seven or eight staff within a couple years. I had no B2B sales

6:45No technology background. but yeah, mostly sort of grew through partnerships and and doing what I still do to this day, which is take care of everyone else first and they'll take care of you second. Yeah, nice. Nice. Very nice. So, that hospitality, you know, people think of it's it's underrated. I've I've got a couple of breweries that I own and hospitality is a huge thing. Especially one of them has a big restaurant and you've got to make sure hospitality is, you know, front of house as as person walked in. You've got to really greet them. You've got to make sure that they are, you know, looked after and that whole process right to the point where they leave. They paid for the the meal and the couple of the beers. It's it's a whole journey, customer journey to go through to make sure that that customer really understands that. And one of the sales leaders, top sales leaders in the world, basically says if you're trying to hire someone at a mid to low level from a sales person to get them onto sales is get a hospitality person.

7:47Okay? Because they are actually all the people that care about people and know how to look after people. and I'm a big believer in that. So, I've always told people that are looking for a junior or a or someone that needs to get into the corporate world from a hospitality, grab a hospitality person. It really, really works. That's a good And that's exactly what you happened with you, Billy. So, you know, running a 200-man person nightclub in in Canada would have been a a big task. Just talk us a bit about a bit about

8:18Yeah, I was Sorry, we hired hundreds of people. We had about 40 permanent staff because it was a in a ski resort, so it was seasonal. In the winters, we we'd gear up and hire a lot of people. We had a We had a capacity of about 450 people. you know, 20 servers, bartenders, and then the rest was security guards, and you know, don't know what the right term is, but we called them customer hosts. So, they'd greet people at the door and organize the VIP booths and all those kind of things. But, yeah, but it was an awesome It was probably over a very successful family, and it was amazing to be in a different country on my own strengths with no influence from everyone in that family. It's probably my first real, you know, job where I I started as a a kicker cleaning the toilets and stopping people doing drugs in the urinals. Yeah. And then I within 4 or 5 months, I was the assistant general manager of this massive business, a part of bigger again hospitality group, being groomed by the CEO of that group and the and the GM. So, yeah, it was a really good thing, and you know, in hospitality, you take care of people, but there's also a lot of really bad parts to it. And if you can it sounds weird, but if you can clean up vomit and broken glass and deal with violent and irate customers and still enjoy it, it's a really good, you know, way to go into things like sales because, you know, you it's a lot of really bad parts of sales, obviously, winning the deals and get the the money, but at the same time, you know, you got to deal with resistance within your own business, within the customers, within everywhere you go, people will do things that are a bit unsettling. Yeah. So,

9:53Those things that, you know, hospitality prepares you for a lot of those things. And also, it reminds you every time you have a bad sales day that you don't want to go back to sweeping up vomit and broken glass and Brilliant. Brilliant. and [clears throat] getting stabbed with a wine glass or something like that. So, you you learned your stripes and and how to look after people and manage expectations right there and then, I suppose, and and throughout your 7 years. So, you ended up going back to the the company you worked with for a few years. you obviously learned how to do sales from a IT perspective. can you just give us a bit of an example of what what that journey was for you going through that learning curve? So, for anyone that's doesn't understand recruitment, when you when you start as a 360° recruiter, you're doing recruiting people. So, you're selling to people to convince them to change their entire lives. It's

10:45A big responsibility that I think a lot of recruiters don't understand is you're putting people's mortgages and homes and families at risk. But then you've also got to sell those people to the So, and and it's a ruthless environment. It's very KPI driven. So, I wouldn't want to wish it on anyone, but it's a very good way to learn very quickly. Essentially, it's high pressure and there's a lot of tactics that is just like volume, volume, volume. Get get as many things done and learn as many things as quickly as possible. Whereas, consultancy technology sales there's the pressure, but the volume's not as high, but

11:18In terms of like learning the ropes of picking up a phone and just calling people you don't know and trying to get them to like you, it was very good for that. The other side, I guess, going to technology sales is like especially in MSP, it's very saturated and the customers don't understand the quality unless you sell to a bigger business where it's even more competitive. So, trying to relate to and create [snorts] analogies that they can understand and allow them to understand the value of what they might be paying for every month is pretty key. And then establishing relationships or understanding your competitors well, like the MSP market does it's not full of good communicators. It's not full of sales people. It's full of you know, a lot of technical founders that can't communicate well and don't do well in relationships. So, I focused and doubled down on relationships all the

12:10For sure. For sure. Really really big you know, the MSP is it's a hard the the especially the smaller type of MSPs that go after the smaller clients. The moms and pops business is very very difficult. Because you know, they've they're under the pressure cuz there's one or two of them in the in the team or three of them in the team and one's got to deliver. One's got to sell. And it's consis- continuous, you know, selling, delivering under pressure and there's no time to have a breather in between. and that becomes a big challenge. And that's why a lot of MSPs don't last. You know, they there's a huge challenge for MSPs out there at the moment because no one wants to spend money on new laptops, new software, new services, new security, whatever it is that they're offering. Really really hard gig. I mean, in the US where the market is large, MSPs you know, they could have you know, 150 people, 200, 300 people working for them. They call themselves still an MSP style business.

13:06You know, where generally the MSP style businesses in Australia, besides five or six big ones that I know, obviously there's a few more in that category, but they are fairly small and and they are taking a lot of stress and and pressure from from the the customer side. so, to manage those expectations of what they can get is quite difficult. Can you sort of give us an example of that pressure that those clients put on you and expect everything be done for for hardly no money. You know?

13:37Yeah, well, I I think the biggest disconnect usually is that they don't they see tickets as the only thing that MSP does. and to be fair, a lot of a lot of MSPs put their value on tickets, which is why a lot of the time they don't fix the solutions. They want to just fix it enough to be like, "It's not so annoying, but we know we still need we recently lost a client because their ticket count got so low, but when they were dealing with us, they started with 100 and we got it down to about 10 a month and they were like, would essentially say, "Well, we don't need you anymore." For sure. so it's an interesting challenge to say like, "Yeah, well, you're paying us to not have problems." And the reality is sometimes they just especially in this market, people are a bit funny.

14:22It seems to be growing in one spot and contracting in another and no one really seems to be nailing where all the money is at the moment, so it's it's a challenge, but again, that's why we we have a cyber side to our business and I know a lot of MSPs say they don't sell inside, but we're not just selling some product or some software. We do proper governance. We do ISO. We do SOC 2. This is where we kind of can leverage both sides of that too, you know, they might come to us and be like, "We need We need SOC 2." And it's like, "Great. We've done SOC 2. Where's your asset register?" "Oh, we haven't got one." "Okay, well, now it's more of an MSP discussion as much as a cyber discussion to be like, 'Okay, what's your MBM? Where's your identity? Where's your access management?' We don't need to take them for a $10,000 a month contract. We can just be their security provider, deliver some around infrastructure, but the reality is these businesses don't need help desk. Yeah, yeah. And for us, we don't want help desk. It's expensive to have bodies on seats.

15:21And that's before you even talk 24/7. So, we have a client just needs MDM, access management, SaaS management, infrastructure management, and no help desk. Well, we charge a lot less, but we have a lot less cost. Yeah. So, that's very So, you can make it more profitable. Before we get there, can you just talk a bit about what happened in the last company? How did you go from last company to start your your organization you're in at at the moment? What happened there? You just had a time opportunity to jump ship and and just say I want to do something myself? Some itch or

15:51Everything's an accumulation, right? Of of your own experiences. This is kind of a long answer, but so, I had the head injury. After I had the head injury, I just I had no I had no tolerance for essentially, because I know my life will end, and I want to make the most of it while it's around. And a lot of people aren't fortunate enough to have something like that happen to them. So, I worked in the first company, one of the founders got incredibly toxic, so I just said, "I'm done. I'm out." They tried everything to keep me, and I said, "You know, this is not worth it." then I went to a pen testing firm. Same thing. They essentially sold me on the dream, and then when I got there, they said, "Put more money in and shut up." So, again, I just pulled the trigger and left. And then I went to a big identity specific enterprise consulting firm. And it didn't gel with my values around work ethic and and work-life balance. So, again, I just pulled the trigger and then said, "After three bad we we're welcoming our first son. I didn't want to come home burnt out and upset." So, and I can grow a business, and I from there it was kind of like, "Well, there's a gap. MSPs are not great.

16:58There's no cyber providers playing in that space. Why don't we do a cyber MSP for sub 200-person businesses?" Great. Great. And yeah, you know, there's a lot of MSPs out there, but we're not trying to be an MSP. We're trying to be a technology solutions provider. and a part of that is some managed services, but we also do a lot of professional services around cyber and and cloud. So, it keeps us agile and keeps us able to move with that. For sure.

17:25Well, it gives you the opportunity to build in something bigger. And that's what I, you know, liked when I initially spoke to you is I think the MSP stuff gets harder and harder as time goes on. you know, the Microsofts of the world and everything else, so they want to sort of commoditize that stuff into their platform somehow. And and less left over for MSP, but if you can actually provide other services bigger than that and not around the sides, then there's always going to be a huge opportunity around that, you know. so so I think it's really important, you know, around the anyone out there that's listening to, you know, work on what the next thing is for them around this MSPs, I think it's quite difficult environment to survive long term in it. That's me personally. if you don't have a few other levers to pull, you know. what are your thoughts on that

18:11Yeah, and I I agree. I feel like MSP, well, traditional MSPs will go the way of printing. Like, there there will be a market for it, but it will shrink and shrink over time. just like using that example of that client that we lost that they're going to have a lot of problems once we've left, but the reality is like most businesses in the next generation don't need a help desk. And most MSPs are built around fixing reactively fixing broken things.

18:38And like how how does a SaaS business reactive infrastructure maintenance? They they don't. But they might need compliance. They might need AI. They need advice. The same way that like a tax accountant that just does BASs, you know, there's there's a market for ones that make real money and grow are the ones that are doing, you know, reporting, CFO type services. And that's kind of where we're angling and where we do provide value to clients. It's not to say we don't do MSPs. It's just more value add for short services as opposed to just calls when breaks.

19:14And talk a bit about your your team at the moment. What type of people do you look like hiring, you know, but what's your what's the the team average team member look like for you? I think it's it's understanding the again going back to the customer and and the position, but you know, our lower level our MSP like level one which we prefer to hire guys with no experience and got a blue collar ethics, truck drivers

19:41Mortgage brokers, whatever. Guys that want to get into IT and cyber. Give them the tools. They probably got kids, so they got something to work for. that's our lower level guys. And then we have a big gap and then we have our high level guys. I've been very successful in knowing what motivates people, so a lot of the guys that work for us are dads. they want to work remote. They don't want to They've got their own little things they like to do, their passion projects on the side. So I'm not trying to be greedy and say, "You must give me 60 hours a week, five days a week." But with people that are super experienced, you know, they do three days a week and they can smash out a project for half the price and as little effort is

20:21And I don't I'm not greedy. If they want to go do their own thing Monday and Friday, but I've got them Tuesday to Thursday, then that's fine. And the customer's The customer's getting access to people they would not have no hope of accessing at that price point, so it's kind of it's a win-win for everyone really. Yeah, I like that. And that that like linear like Monday to Friday, you must do these hours and this is how much [snorts] we expect and here's your time tracker kind of PS services again. I think it works for the big enterprise, but for a you know, it's 100 person business or a tech company that needs Azure help or SOC 2 compliance, I don't know. I don't think we need to do it that way.

21:02For sure. I totally agree with you. I think you've got to attract the the best talent. Number one. you know, as a services business, if you don't have the best talent, how do you actually you know, how do you service people? You know, and I think it's a really good thing around the business model is really understanding, you know, your type of people that you want to you want to attract to your organization, and then those good quality people you'll always naturally keep clients and you'll win more work and referrals will come and everything else. I think it's really important where the bigger consultancy firms, you know, are basically are numbers, you know, they have won a project, they need 10 bodies, bring people on, you know, churn them through, get them, you know, work them hard, get the result that they need, and then the person's either burnt you know, just is not in love with the the brand and and and leaves. You know, it's it's actually quite a quite a sad story how that all works. So, Also, I like that I like the team team culture that the the the dynamics of the mix is pretty good. where are the guys based? Are they based all in Australia or or offshore as well?

22:05Mixture? How what's the team look like? we're all over Australia. There is a heavy Melbourne presence because I'm here, but generally everyone's overseas. Okay. Great. Great. Great. That's good. And now, let's talk a bit about your services, okay? Cuz one one of the things when I was talking to you when I was last in Melbourne about the vibe coding and and how big it's getting, and obviously the vibe coding's going to get bigger and bigger, and I said, you know, I know a lot of people IT services firms, one of the things they wanted to do all the time was build up software products, but they've got their best people delivering in a services environment, but they want to build up annuity revenue through a SaaS type solution, and then they've gone out to Repl.it, and they've gone out to Lovable, and they've gone out to all these other vibe coding platforms out there, and there's a lot more popping up as we speak. and they've built some little solution, and then now they want to sell it alongside the services or position it as a separate brand and hopefully make money and then get a bit of annuity revenue. And it's quite interesting to see how many of our clients at Lending Group have actually tried to do that. And then fallen into a trap of a few things, but one of the traps is around security side.

23:22And with vibe coding, obviously brings a lot of challenge. So for those people out there on vibe coding, what is security what would you think? Billy, maybe it's the way you go through methodology or approach. How would you actually verify a SOC 2 compliance or whatever it is? What would you do to go through the high

23:42Yeah, vibe coding is an interesting it's obviously accessible like I I have a a group called almost IT Heroes where we support like executives to make informed IT decisions. Not just that's what we do, but like anything. It's kind of like a an online support group for IT for IT decision making for dummies. So I created an app for that to create a community and just played around with it and some of the security remediation and scanning vulnerability scanning is pretty interesting. But I would [snorts] I actually and again I spoke about this on another podcast, but I think it's about understanding what you're doing with the app. So vibe coding is great. Get it to MVP. Verify that it's good that you can get some kind of heat on it or some I don't know what they call it. Signals. They call Yeah, get some signal on your app and what you're trying to achieve.

24:29But it's not a it's not a long-term solution if you want to take that to market with customers and data and all these kind of things because you're building and iterating it so you are you know you might like create something cool here then you go back and fix something, but then the vibe or the AI machine goes off on its own little thing and forgets what you were telling it back there. And now it's changed the whole database and now you're exposed to an SQL dump or something through a command call, so

25:02For sure. I guess what I'm trying to say is like the change management is not there. The process is not there. And you can try and embed it, but these apps, you know, didn't like Lovable wasn't even a thing till a year ago. I think their anniversary a week ago. So, you know, are they embedding like ISO management processes into how they vibe code your app? I would be very, very surprised. and then that also ties into how you understand compliance. So, ISO is a process framework. It's not necessarily technical control framework, whereas SOC 2 is very heavy on security control. So, how do you implement a vibe coded app into or what is your process to vibe code? And what is the process of your vibe coding software that you're using? Whereas SOC 2 is like how are you controlling and doing change management on these on these processes? And how are they relatable to all the changes you've made over the last 6 months? And if people are just randomly doing it whenever they want, not great. So, I guess going back to the start is like use it to get to market, but then you need to pony up, get a product team in and actually solidify what you built. And I think you could probably speak to this more than me, but like a buyer is not going to buy some random thing you came up with that might be ripping off a bunch of other people that is actually not what you think it is.

26:27Agreed. The value will go up when you solidify make it a a business as opposed to just a Yeah, just throw it out there, see who bites. You know, people can see that, you know. So, anyway, people look at the website, they look at the people behind the team, they look at all all the things before they do the do the transaction, you know. and and if they can't see that there, but you know, those signals that they will not actually buy and they're not transact. So, that is the big challenge with the vibe coding, I suppose. But, really interesting on the security side because people forget about the frameworks. It's It's more like waterfall approach. You have to stop sign something off, look at it, review it. And I suppose if you if you if you or even agile, but if you actually have something that's continuously changing without you really knowing what it's doing on the fly, then what the hell, you know, you don't really have any control. You don't know what it's hap- actually happening. And then, you know, you can't be validating that that that is secure or not secure, I suppose. So, really interesting to see what happens.

27:29And I I and I presume that'll be one of the things those vibe coding platforms will bring in at some stage is how to actually stage gate it. So, it actually goes through a framework where you can sign things off. It'll be very interesting how it changes and evolves over time. But, yeah. It's a It's a It's amazing what it can do in terms of you know, I spent a day in drank a lot of coffees and it was really fun. It was so much fun to do. Yeah. But, at the same time, I wouldn't necessarily I As soon as that Let me use my own words against me like almost IT heroes is a very early stages, but once it's more solidified, it I will go and buy something and just have that safety that I've bought something and I don't blame someone else when things go wrong.

28:20For sure, 100%. So, let's talk about it Let's Let's Let's move on there. Let's talk about the the community that you're building cuz I know a bit about that and I think it's an awesome idea to help people out there in the community. So, let's talk about your community. Yeah, so I obviously been around technology and having like all good people that usually started businesses have a slight chip on my shoulder around some of the industry practices that go around in cyber and IT and MSP world. So, you just see a lot of businesses making terrible decisions. costing and especially we work with a lot of not-for-profits, a lot of expensive decisions.

28:55And I just haven't seen anyone that's focused on how to acquire services just with a a full black and white or even a gray lens. Everything is so biased towards what people are good at. so how do you educate a buyer to go to market buy services and see through the, you know, relativity bias of a vendor. So, you know, you go out and you look at an ERP system, you're like, this guy's good at SAP, this guy's good at these guys are NetSuite professionals, these guys are Dynamics. How do you identify that and play out through it when you're not a technology professional? it's kind of what we're trying to do is create support for those people and then obviously, you know, selfishly that helps us win work in our space, but also to have leverage partners and use their IP to empower these people. So, I don't know how to go to market for an ERP system,

29:49For sure. in in in in providing access to the group, then these people are also going to be asking them to give up, you know, give me a one-pager on how to buy these you know, give us a one-pager on the difference ERP systems for a 10-person bakery and a trucking company.

30:11Because they're very different but they are equations. there's a mathematical formula to success here. Obviously, humans that up for everybody. but how can we help these people quantify need first and foremost and then get the help they need. Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So, you you launching that on a on a webinar shortly, I think. Is Is that correct?

30:37Yeah, yeah. I think the 5th of Oh, good. I didn't talk to all as far as you know what the CFOs, COOs, owners, whatever maybe they told in their interview that they did an IT subject, so then they become the de facto IT manager of like a $20 million business. Yeah, they have no background and all of a sudden they're dealing with vendors and they have no idea what's going on, but they're just making knee-jerk decisions based on well, [snorts] that guy bought me lunch and he was really nice and that guy was really good talking to, we use this. and making impactful decisions with no kind of judgment call in between.

31:10Yeah, right, right. Good, good, good. So, you've put that up on LinkedIn, I believe, so hopefully for those people out there, we should actually promote that forward that out to us as well. Billy, we'll put it on our socials for you as well. and a bit of a blurb, I'll put that on to the Loading Dock as well as IT Master Minds as well. So, we'll get you some leverage there. awesome to give back to the community like that as well. I think it's really, really good. I know that it obviously gives you credibility when you do something like that and it's really powerful if you control the narrative to a certain degree, but at the end of the day, you're helping people out there make an informed decision and I think it's really, really important because there's a lot of sharks out there as well. you know, feeding off those for those people that don't know how to make it the correct decision in IT and giving it a bit of a bad name for everyone else. So, that's awesome. That's pretty pretty good. what other type of things are you doing? How do you normally go to market, for example, Billy? I know you're really passionate on partnerships and and how do you work with partners at the moment?

32:10Yeah, I I've built my career I've I've always worked in early-stage startups with no marketing, no money to spend on anything. So, the only even the first one, I didn't even have the tool to get a phone number to call someone. It was like, are they in the yellow pages or can I Google the phone number and see if it works? so, how do you do that? You you talk to the people that they talk to. So, business advisers, accountants, lawyers, other technology consultants. and people are very open to conversations if you're not trying to sell them something. So, you know, I called up an accountant that I knew worked with my target market and say, "Hey, you know, I'm I I'm new to this. I'm I'm trying to make friends. Would you open to a coffee?" And it would just generally go from there. Obviously now that I'm more established and I I kind of understand my value proposition to other people better, it's it's it's a lot more targeted and easier. but yeah, you you know, I asking your simple questions of your clients is amazing that no one ever really does.

33:13What do you do? Oh, we're an accountant. Okay, who Yeah, but there's a lot of accounting firms. Who do you work with? Oh, we work with construction. Okay, so what what's Why do people engage you? And they're like, "I thought we're here to talk IT." I'm like, "Yeah, we are. We will. But I need to understand you And then writing it down and just going, "Cool. Well, now this person is paying me money. What other things can I do for them? And not necessarily to make money for but just you know, they've obviously got other issues in their business. It could be HR, it could be delivery, it could be they're using Excel spreadsheets. Okay, I know a guy that does zero ERP system so they keep a hold of their inventory when they're doing their job. Right. Now I've made my client money. So, I haven't just delivered a service, I'm making them money. Now the guy that does ERP solutions remembers me fondly.

34:03And he might have clients, too. So, it's Yeah, it's more thinking of like a barter system of delivery of services as opposed to I only do this if I get money. For sure. would say is 90% of what people think is "I've done my time. I did my uni degree. I'm special. I deserve money." As opposed to going, "Well, how can I help as many people as possible?" And yes, there's a net benefit to you over time doing that. But ultimately, like you are there to help people. so help them.

34:33Mhm. just go well I don't know what that is or I don't care about that because I don't get paid so I'm just not even going to ask the But people will tell you their problems. And sometimes you can help them so why Yeah. Yeah. It's the ultimate go to market for me. Sorry, long-winded answer. Fair enough. No, it's all good. It's good. It's good to keep that that circle going. I think it's really important. How do you going to stay competitive in the in the IT services market because obviously things are changing. AI is coming along. And we've talked a bit about by coding which is a byproduct of all the AI tools that are out there I suppose. how how are you going to stay competitive in the new market? I think the idea is I talk about this a lot and it's a bit of a gimmick but system architecture is really important for how we deliver. And it goes back you know we lost that because they didn't they just weren't using us as much as they thought they were and we thought thought whatever reason anyway.

35:35But the reality is like we've removed a lot of our ticket count so we can lower our price we can come in a bit cheaper we you know some guys would say they're undercutting it but we're also removing a lot of our workload in the way that we do things so we make less money but we do less work. For sure. And it comes down to the outcomes we're all looking for like the only guy that doesn't have kids wants kids. So we're trying to spend more time with their kids while making you know a living and delivering a good service. Whereas I think the traditional model is like cool we're making XYZ spend this on marketing then hire more bodies pay for

36:10Whereas we're like cool we want more work we're always looking for more work but we're just trying to think of the better way of doing it as opposed to adding more cost. so it's like I don't know if that answers the No, I think it's I think it's important. I think it is important because you know I It's like a 5-year lens instead of a an hour lens. Like if I was looking at a client saying, "Well, they're like, 'Oh, we're thinking of going to the cloud.'" It's like, "Well, I could probably sleep sleep a server in there for 100 grand, keep them on that for 3 years." But we go, "Well, let's get them in the cloud so they're they're happy in the next 5 years. They're not going to be looking around because they're like, "Why do we have this server for 3 years?"

36:49And we could have made a lot more on the server. But we've kept the customer and their ticket count is lower, they're secure, everything's kind of happy, and then we've got value adds. Value adds for partners. So now they've got a bit more budget to improve their CRM, that partner is now happy. Or we come in and say, "Look, normally you wouldn't be able to afford this, but now we can get Look at ISO." So that the money we saved on the server, now you can get a badge and you can maybe win some local government work, and they're like, "Wow, never had an IT provider try and win me work."

37:19So I guess maybe it's moving more towards a How did I say it earlier? Like a technology service provider as opposed to an IT provider. So you're like, you're in an advisory business with a a flavor of delivery as opposed to a delivery business that sometimes sends you a bill. Yeah, no, I agree. I think if they can get that that right, that's a great they're all obviously, you know, as we spoke, like you know, Microsoft starting to commoditize things and even you know, the ISOs of the world, services companies have tried to commoditize that. One of those is Vanta. I think it's Vanta.

37:53Is it better? Vanta is very good. Vanta or Vanta? you would obviously, you know, see that those type of companies coming out and and trying to commoditize services. Is that what they've tried to do? I actually don't know anything about them, but I've seen them advertise quite a bit. What are they actually What's their business model and how does it impact guys like you, Billy? So we're a Vanta partner. There is another another one called Drata, and then there's a bunch of like small players that are like very AI-driven kind of automation type tools.

38:22And then there's a size of There's a million tools out there, but now those tools are essentially working on a provisor that like a security consultant or like it actually wouldn't even call it GRC ISO consultant or security consultant. They're They're paper pushers. They're like, you don't need all these consultants. You just plug your tools in direct and you get live compliance.

38:42Which is great. It makes sense. The implementation side is the hardest part because ISO is a a process framework. So, you need to understand your processes to implement. So, that's where Vanta can fall down is like, yeah, you've got a tool. Now, you have to implement tool. Now, you have to understand your business enough to make the tool work properly. And then you got to update the documentation internally in that client to make it compliant. And And no one wants to do that.

39:08Yeah, and you still got to go to order audit. And now the audit say auditor say, "Well, where's this?" And you're like, "Oh, well or or the auditor goes, "Oh, yeah, that's great. You've got that. I don't need that. Why did you do that?" Still the Vanta won't help you understand the framework and your business and also what you need to do versus what you don't need to do. Where where you implement Vanta for clients is when they go multiple frameworks. So, then we can start blending their ISO work into their SOC 2 work.

39:35And also SOC 2 has a lot more compliance requirements in terms of like you need an EDR, you need an antivirus. ISO you need an antivirus, but the auditor very rarely checks if it's supplied because they're not technical auditors. So, that live compliance will be like, yes, we have 27 devices in the wild or 27 are reporting back antivirus has been patched this week. So, that will really speed up that process. but it's different businesses for different stages, right? A larger business, Vanta is going to set them back 60, 70 grand a year.

40:08That That part The consultant is about like we charge around 60 grand a year, Yeah, you can save 10 grand and you'll get better expertise than you would self So, so if let me just go let me get that right there 60-70 grand for that software solution. yeah, it's You still would would that include the implementation and someone actually running that for you externally or you still have to pay on top of that?

40:32TBC. So, Vanta don't have a professional services team team in Australia technically. And they're their customer success consultants, they're not ISO And Vanta has I think up to 80 frameworks depending on where you are, what you're doing. So, yeah, there's We we have clients that have bought Vanta and they brought us in to help them figure it out. We've had a client and we've come in and ripped it out because it just wasn't appropriate for what they were doing. The other thing with ISO you've got the cost of the audit and the pen test. So, again, we'll go to audit, we'll go to all the auditors and get the best price and then with the pen testing, they're not all the same, too. So, we have up to seven firms that we work with depending on the client and what they're

41:16Okay. Wow. So, who who are the auditors? Are they certified people that can sign things Yeah, there's four companies in Australia at the moment I think that are certified ISO auditors, but they they come in and check your work. Where it gets a bit gray is like the auditor will be hungry for everything and as consultants we just say, "No." Like, "No, we need that." "No, you

41:40"This business is this. You don't need this." And then the auditor might get a bit upset and we say, "Either talk to the lawyers or bugger off." and usually they bugger off. it perfect example is like a lot of technology businesses working A part of ISO is you need security on the door. Well, how do you justify security on the door when you're working in a co-working space?

42:02For sure. Or you're working from home company. Well, you just say we're work we have assessed this risk. We are work from home company. And the audit that's that is enough to because you thought I said it wasn't about removing the risk it's about assessing the risk and then showing that you've assessed it not necessarily remediated it for a sock to is more like do you have this thing and is this thing working?

42:27Wow, interesting. sock to has been around for a while hasn't it? Because there's sock two and then there's different things but I mean how long has it been around for and are there any new sort of I think there are some new sort of AI type of also on top of that new AI certifications coming out as well is that correct?

42:49Yeah, so sock two type one type two it's just a bit of a side adage but it depends where your market is so if you're in Australia you don't need necessarily need sock two if you're in the US it's very much the meet the standard okay Europe is GDPR and ISO so you got to assess is it business driven or is it market driven if it's market driven listen to your customers and what do they want with the AI frameworks is ISO 42001 is the one that's doing very well getting the most signal as as I keep trying to figure out that word but yeah that a few people looking at it we haven't really everyone sort of asked about it but no one's really got that market driver and ultimately a lot of the reasons why people do this is customers they want this and I won't give you my money unless you do this so that's generally why people are going to these frameworks I'd love to say to people like no we want to be the best compliant company we can be but generally speaking it's like are you going to is this going to affect my bottom line?

43:55For sure do insurances support that or or you know are they premiums go up if you don't have all those certifications or or does it even impact it? It depends on the insurance most insurance will have elements of these frameworks in them. So, incident response planning is like a cornerstone of any cyber program.

44:15And also the cornerstone of any but, you know, we we have a we have clients that go ISO alignment, so they're not looking to spend the money on the audit and everything, but they're looking to get their processes in place. It's a great place to start, too, because then when you're ready to pull the trigger, you don't don't have this huge body of work and chaos. You just you've sort of got everything maybe tweak it a little bit, and then you're ready. if you're going to do it, you're going to commit to it. Whereas if it's ISO alignment, you're like, "Cool, we've got 12 months. We'll deliver these documents over that time with this consultant." You probably save a bit of money.

44:48Yeah. Yep. whereas every insurance policy is different, but generally, you know, there's there's some baselines in place, and it's a mix of technical process and sorry, technical technical control and process will deliver an insurance outcome. For sure. so, yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. I was looking at a solution the other day, and it was, you know, they were asking, "Have you got role-based authorizations?" You know, and they talked about role-based and talking about why it's important to have role-based and everything else, and obviously, you just take it for granted when you're using a system. If it's got the right authentic- authority and indication around the role-based stuff. So, it's interesting all those frameworks coming more and more aligned, I suppose, over time. Will will they merge, or will they just get more complicated with with more AI and things happening? What's your thoughts on that, Billy? the the frameworks will merge, or What you like you think Do you think that that some of those frameworks will become less relevant relevant, and and some new ones will pop in, or or you think things will

45:54I think fundamentally, they're the same problems. It's just the different drivers for them. So, like ISO is a process framework, SOC 2 is a control framework, DISP is like a is essentially ATO on steroids, which is the military one for those watching at They're all driven by different industries and different interpretations of what they deem to be important.

46:17If you're looking to do a secure strategy, ISO is not one of them. It's a part of the journey, and it's good to think about your processes and documentation, but it is not a secure framework by any stretch. It is a [clears throat] reputational framework. So, it's like, "Great, we've done we've we've put some thought into this." But, if I'm sitting in a blue team office and we're going to defend against a major cyber threat, ISO is not going to do

46:41For sure. to stop anything. I'm sorry, I should say it's not going to do anything to stop a security incident. But, what it will do is if you once you've had the incident, you're like, "Cool, this is the steps that we So, if you really like if you you've got to remember the difference between compliance and a secure program, and that is a combination of many of them as

47:01To cover as many facets as possible. But, it's also going to be relevant to the risk of the business and the industry it's in. So, For sure. a B2B e-commerce business, what's the threat? The threat is someone hacks their Stripe account and dumps a bunch of cash out of it. But, if they they get customer emails and names, it's not that bad, right? And some emails, they're not stealing PII, they're not stealing like a medical assessment or psychological records, they're not stealing the secrets to how you built the Westgate Tunnel in

47:31It's all about understanding that risk, but also where your footprint lies as well. So, For sure. It's always important to remember the difference between security and compliance, two different things. Yeah. That's good good point. Now, I see that on the shares, cuz I look at the share market quite a bit, the AI obviously shares have been going gangbusters, as we know. It's sort of like a bubble at the moment. But, I see the cybersecurity software hasn't really done much in the last like 9 months, you know, [snorts] prior to that 3 or 4 years ago, anything with cybersecurity on the NASDAQ was just going gangbusters. And then obviously AI has come in and chomped it. but obviously cybersecurity is is more important, you know, every day as we go on. do you find that a lot of people are forgetting about cybersecurity because of AI? Do you Do you think that's the case or is it just me looking at numbers and and where all the investments are going? Do you think that's happening at all?

48:27I don't think so, but I also think there's a lot so much work to be done anyway. Like I've never met a I've met very few businesses that have got it right Got a provider that's getting it right, I should even say. So I think there's still a lot of growth in in maturity and understanding of what cybersecurity is and how to deliver it. and in terms of the market itself, I think there's there's been a lot of in the cyber industry. So there was more and more up-and-comers, but they kind of stabilized with these big companies like Sentinel SentinelOne, Tenable. they've kind of consolidated a lot of the market under them, even Salesforce. Google bought Mandiant. So

49:13Those companies, these rising stars in cyber have been accumulated. I think SailPoint is a a venture cap not venture capital like a private equity group has been buying up a lot of the larger vendors in the market and consolidating them in a handful of those providers. So I wouldn't say the share market is a representation of this growth in cyber.

49:34I'd say the M&A is. Yeah, okay. Like essentially just bought Secureworks for a billion, a couple billion. Missing Link was one of the, you know, 200 to 300 kind of providers. They got bought out for 150 million. And all the all those smaller ones too, even the ones that are hitting 20, 30 staff, they're getting bought out. so there's there's there's definitely a lot of money in

49:58Cyber side acquisition. Yeah. Okay. So, it's interesting They're trying to buy market share, essentially. I think This is a older statistics, probably changed in the last year or two. There's 250 cyber companies in Australia, and a lot of those are specialist niche providers, not broad ones like Cyber CX. Melbourne alone had 1,200 MSPs. So, you think nationally it would be There was 250, it's probably down in the hundreds now of cyber providers.

50:25Yet there's a all these IT providers running around, so it tells you how much money is flooding the cyber space if all those companies are disappearing and merged into bigger and multinationals. For sure. For sure. I mean, there's Yeah, I I I think on average a a two of my clients a year gets gets gets acquired. so and and it's it's just keeps them going. So, that's just the general tech side of it, not the cyber security side. and I think everything as becomes more and more autonomous and AI and more people get on onto doing things automatic, I think it will be more of a cyber security I think it's going to challenge will go up, definitely. all right. So, let's just talk about about going back to some of your clients and the profile of your clients. What would your ideal client be? But if you had to think Well, there never is an ideal client, but if there was, what would would that client look like to you?

51:21I guess using industries it'd probably be professional services or not-for-profit or a family-owned business. anywhere from I don't know, 40 to 500 from a tech side, there's two I I we we prefer typically transitioning or tran transgenerational businesses, so new new new leadership's come in, gone, this is not good. We need to actively change how we do things. because the way our model works is we modernize businesses at like cut rate prices because we want like I said we we want to get them to an outcome where we get paid every month, but we're not having to do ridiculous amounts of work. So, we're the kind of vendor that comes in and goes here's everything you've got. We've identified it all. We're going to remove as much of this cost as possible, and you're going to have to trust us on that journey as opposed to keeping it status quo where all the money starts raining So, those kind of clients are great, especially if we can move the needle. I left that enterprise because I just got sick of sitting in meetings and nothing ever happened. So,

52:27Yeah. Yeah. we can deal with the chair, the chair, the CEO, and maybe the ops manager, and just get to work. It's ideal. So, get them in the cloud, get them secure, get in the governance, do essentially digital transformation, and then of their IT infrastructure and how they manage it.

52:47They're the really fun projects, but you know, we just want people that want to do good things first and foremost. they want us to quote against three other vendors and to deliver the same thing that they've scoped up and don't want anyone to tell them that what they've scoped up is probably not great, then I don't want to work with them. Yeah, you've got the right They just want want you to be part of the bidding process. so, so moving on to that sort of area, what are the sort of common challenges that you face working with clients? Do you Is it they do not understand the services you provide, or or they've got too much on, or they're too exhausted, or cash, you know, is an issue? What What do you think are the main challenges your clients have when working with you,

53:35Money's hard at the moment, I feel. This it's not a I wouldn't say it's like a recession or anything, but it's not a it's not a go days either. It's kind of Everyone's out for a deal in in a way. So, yeah, money is always a challenge in in getting clients to move from their old provider. but, I would also say it is just that soft point. It takes time. You can't automate relationships. So, spending time with customers is probably the hardest thing for me running a small business.

54:09We're not at the point where we can have account managers or a team of service delivery guys that regularly maintain contact. So, a lot of that falls on me. and then just helping them through everything they're going through is if with technology and being a technology provider, there's always this hard line to delineate of like, this is what we And this is what we don't do.

54:30Cuz they don't necessarily understand the difference. So, yeah, setting boundaries can be challenging because you don't want to piss them off. also need to They need to understand that, you know, we're not experts in the space and if, you know, they bully us into doing it, it's not going to be good for anybody. People don't like to be told no, I guess in summary.

54:52Yeah, especially if you're dealing with smaller companies and you've got the founders there or with someone else, they've got a strong personality. So, that can be quite difficult, you know, in a smaller organization because they feel like they can wield the power and make decisions. So, sometimes that is a bit of a challenge. How do you Do you have any mechanisms or any thoughts around keeping the quality of service to clients you know, in your delivery? What What are the things do you do? What You got any tips or tricks out there for people who are listening in around keeping that service of quality delivery going?

55:25I think you need to find people who helping people. It seems obvious, but a lot a lot of I find a lot of people get to high-ranking technology positions because they don't want to do work and they don't want to you know, have to deal with the day-to-day. So, we don't really compromise on people saying I don't do this. If you're in our business and everyone's sick, you're you're the help desk guy for the day and I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

55:50It's not pushing people into positions they don't like, but it's also all hands on deck. It's kind of that plucky startup kind of mentality. So, you want people that care and want to help and don't think anything's below Good for us. And it's not very sexy, but just templates. Just template For sure. There's an answer for every problem. Usually it's the same five problems that come up. So, how do you

56:14Template that and educate how to deal with those scenarios in different emotional contexts. Angry, sad, disappointed. SOPs SOPs, hey? Make a big difference. So, yeah, definitely definitely. Okay. So, the last piece of that in that area is can you can you actually talk a bit about a success story recently that you've done with a client?

56:39Yeah, this one's actually really recent and we're sending it today, but we just as a 650 person child care provider and major charity in Victoria, we've done their IT strategy for the next 5 yeah, they're they're at they're at the point where the the COO was in tears in our meeting because the current MSP was is just doing everything they can to be incredibly difficult and then just trying to ram in invoices everywhere. so, you know, we we've given them a clear strategy. We've done all their They're just thankful that someone communicated it and put it into slides that they can understand. and that's a really nice feeling to do that for them and then also give them the ammunition and the fuel they need to go back to their MSP and and give them a good pat on the head. So, because you know, it it's really hard to be mean to people. It's really I'm sorry, it's hard to be nice to people, but you sometimes like it's part of life, you just have to do it. Whereas it feels like this MSP is just like treating her like Yeah, they're not being very nice for and I don't really understand why. So, yeah, it's good to get good to do that kind of service and deliver it and then yeah, hopefully we'll get to work together as their MSP as well. But for now, she's got some good ammunition to straighten everything out and we've been advising her behind the scenes as well.

58:07Someone was in distress, you're helping them. It's a good feeling. Yeah, definitely, definitely. When you when you're helping someone that really needs help and they want to help, that's brilliant, isn't it? Brilliant. That's fantastic. Great, great. Yeah, that's Yeah. [snorts] And I I heard that you you when you spoke recently you you recently in the process of signing off for one one big client as well, which is fantastic. can you give us the journey of how something like this, you know, a big deal happens and and goes from start to finish? Can you talk a bit about the the sales cycle on that?

58:41Yeah, well, it wasn't quick. it took about 6 to 8 months and there three or four months where I didn't hear from them and I was like there's no way that's going ahead. But Yeah, I think I they're an outlier for us. We wouldn't normally do a client of that size, but ironically it they're not like a big business. It's I spoke about this earlier, but like moving the needle. They're a family owned and operated business. So, when you when you get in there, you you have to approach it very different a large enterprise where there's procurement panels and lawyers and and all these things. It's it was a very emotional kind of process, which is unusual for a business of that size. So, you teach it talking to the emotion of what they do. And that's why we like these kind of businesses is because they genuinely care. whereas a normal bigger business processes like, you know, it's all KPIs and and, you improving the deal score and getting all these little touch points in and and providing value, but with them it was very driven by like, you know, what's the emotional outcome that we deliver for our customers, which is also incredibly refreshing, but also a different thing, but it is also asking the right questions and not talking about yourself. I see too many technology consultants that go into a meeting and they break the cardinal rules. It's meant to be them talking 10 to 15% the customer talking the rest.

1:00:06I I just went in and said, "Look, this is what we do. Here's a slide. Now I just want to turn around and talk about you." And he's like, "That's bizarre. The other guy spoke for yeah, 18 slides and telling us how amazing he was." I I I didn't talk about us till about the fourth meeting. It was just finding their problems and

1:00:27Yeah, people pay for people to solve their problems, you know, and the bigger the problem, the bigger they'll pay to solve the problem. So, that's really important. Thanks for that, Billy. It's a great share. I think a lot of people out there would resonate with that. I think everyone rushes off to to tell them all about themselves and not listen to the the client. So, that's a awesome thing there. let's just talk about some of the the challenges in the market at the moment. you talked a bit about the market is fairly soft at the moment. I know that Victoria's a bit difficult compared to New South Wales and Brisbane at the moment. can you just talk a bit about the market where you see the market at the moment? Is it Is it Is it tricky in your sector? yeah, I wouldn't I don't know. It's kind of a weird market. It's hard to to feel it out at the moment. I think there's a lot of frustration in the business community in It's where we're We're pretty heavily involved in the startup SaaS deep tech kind of space. We sponsor a few events there for the SaaS side specifically.

1:01:28And it's very optimistic and they're very buoyant. Everyone's very happy and and doing things. But I feel the more standard businesses or normal businesses which make up a large part of the economy, it's at the energy feels quite So it's it's I guess in summary it's hard to put a finger on it. I think there's a lot of frustration. I'm I'm not very political and I am a Labor member, but I I think the Victorian government is doing everyone's head in. it seems like they're just trying to make everything difficult. Like I won't be voting for them at all. and I'm was a Labor Party member and I I just can't stand them. Everything they seem to be doing is just like how can we piss off businesses and make it difficult to run a business.

1:02:12Yeah, that's crazy. Down to like the roads are terrible. I don't know, I just which you know, businesses they conf- it's a confidence thing like to go out on your own and and start a business, it's terrifying and a massive risk. You need a little confidence behind you. And at the moment it doesn't feel like that. Yeah. Fair enough. That's It's tough. It's tough. let's talk a bit about being a business owner. It's tough, we know it's not easy. you have your up up and up and downs. and I suppose at the end of the day you know, you got to make sure that you have more ups than downs. What are the most important lessons you think you've learned as a business owner so far? There's a few. I think persistence is key. I could have given up a few times. there's

1:03:00Even this time last year I was probably losing six grand a month and I was getting married in a month and I was just freaking out. why was I I left a a very well-paying job in consulting to start my business and invest all those savings into what felt like a black Yeah. But now I'm looking at next year and it's like we'll we'll probably triple in size. So it's I think persistence is very key. getting people around you. this is a bit one I don't like talking in a negative but hire quick and fire quick.

1:03:35I I hired poorly because I was stressed and I just I was I was we all do it. You try to buy something to make yourself feel better. I was trying to like fix problems with people instead of just fixing the problems. so and then don't let them drag out. I had an employee who was a great person but just not good at his job. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:55And I I let it go for too long. It hurt him. It hurt me. It was just It's a hard lesson to learn. Yeah. Normally when you when you get rid of someone it's quite a relief not only for you as the business owner but for the person themselves cuz they weren't performing. So they were under spec. And and you and we know small businesses you don't fire quickly generally because you know it's a personal thing like a big corporate structure. And and when you do sort of let someone go they actually reflect on it you know that's awesome that you did that you know two months later because I realized I actually after reflect on myself I wasn't in the right job or I wasn't performing to what I needed to perform to and you were frustrated I was frustrated and I've got something better. That's generally what happens to be honest. So yeah brilliant some brilliant insights there. What's your short to long-term goals at the moment for your organization Billy? What it look like at a high level? well the short term is get a get a steady salary for me.

1:04:52Yeah. Good good good yeah. And then get some more coverage for the MSP side because you just do need a few more bodies there as opposed to the the the consulting side is a bit more and then long-term you know the I the idea is to get to be well to become essentially a a a larger provider that can deliver keep the see the agility but not not get too big that we we lose the soul of like genuinely wanting to help people. So, what does that look like? I don't know. A team of 20 that are doing the work of 50 but also getting to spend time with their kids and friends.

1:05:36Nice. Nice. Bringing the human touch back into it. I love I love it. Okay, last thing. Anyone that wants to leave, you know, corporate or a big company or whatever it is and start up, what would be the sort of aspiring advice you would give to them? You know, you've mentioned some stuff about I suppose is one of the things the key things you need but what would you say to them to actually jump ship? I think it's work on like figure out what you're good at and not what you're good at now. Like it's very different when you're on your And I had to really figure that out and it was really painful but if you can do it beforehand, do it because you don't know as much as you think you do. And I think you know, you think you know everything but you really don't. So, once you identify that, then you can start figuring out where you need to put your time and your If you're a technical guy, you're good at consulting and delivering cool well, your biggest problem will be growth.

1:06:33And it'll be partnerships and you'll think there's no priority in meeting people and all these things and it's you're all too busy. Well, then you need a co-founder or you need to find someone that can deliver those leads for you. For sure. Because that will be your biggest problem and it's where most people fail is they just don't get the revenue. So, yeah, you got to find a a sales guy that's off his head and is willing to give up 200 grand a year to come and work with you or you got to

1:06:58Learn how to do sales. Learn how to do sales. Ian's great for that. but yeah, those kind of understanding where you're not everything in the everyone in the You have to You're going to be good at something, so you got to find out where those weaknesses are and try and fill them early or plan to fill them. Nice. Nice. Nice. Good great great advice. You know, I always say to people it starts with clients. If you don't have clients and you can't bring new clients on board, very difficult to have a business of any any type really. You know, it's not many businesses out there that that attract clients. It's always the other way around. You have to go out and get clients and you have got to convince someone the whole time. So, you've got to be selling the whole time basically. Even when you're delivering something that's really good, you actually should be naturally selling to them on how good it is even, you know, sometimes to reflect on that. Yeah.

1:07:47I 100% agree. I don't think the job of a founder is to do work. It's to sell. That's I'm biased because I come from a sales background, but you see so many This is true of accountants and lawyers and everyone's like, I'm smart. I deserve money. And it's like, that's not how the world works. If you don't get deals in, you do have a business. And you see a lot of these guys and they'll get sucked into like consulting gigs for their old company and and they're essentially just a contractor. It's not a business. That's a contractor. So, you need to figure out how do I set up a business people want to give me money to do. And They and again they make that mistake. It's they want me. It's like, no, they don't. They want a problem fixed.

1:08:28How do you do that problem times 10 people that make you 10 million? For sure. For sure. Anyway, perfect way to end off the session, Billy. I really appreciate your time. I know how busy you are. Just like to say once again, thanks so much and we'll probably get you onto the podcast in about a year's time to see how your organization's going. I I can't wait to see what happens around the cybersecurity stuff and the and the compliance, especially around Vibe Goten and all the new things that'll be coming out of the next couple of months with all AI. Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it. very much. Cheers.

1:09:03Thanks Ian. Cheers. Thanks for joining us on IT Mastermind Talks. Don't miss out on our next episode. Hit the follow button and stay updated. Want to be our next podcast guest? Contact us and share your expertise with our audience. Visit www.itmastermindtalks.com for more information.